Koda's having some health problems?

BoscoandKoda · December 16th, 2009, 04:00 PM

not sure if this is the right place to post this but...
The last 2 weeks Koda has been having to go outside and pee alot. He goes out at least once a hour now (sometimes twice) and when he goes for a long time..
He also has been sleeping more and when he does any exercise his breathing becomes labored.
He has been tested for a UTI and it came back normal, he has had blood work done to make sure it's not his liver or kidneys nothing has come back wrong except his Eosinophils were high. His sugar levels also came back perfect
We took in a stool sample and it came back normal..
The vet has had us adding protein (eggs) and salt to his diet for 5 days and nothing has changed.
He also has been drinking more..
Does anyone have any suggestions on what it could be, or what we can try to help him out?
Thanks.

SaintSamson · December 17th, 2009, 12:54 AM

What sort of blood screen did you have done?
I would suggest a full blood panel and a U/A (urinary test) if they have not done so already. Also, have they checked his thyroid? Pancreas? Kidneys? Has he had a fecal test done recently? Are his lymph nodes swollen? Have his lungs and heart been checked thoroughly?
Talk with your vet, if you don't seem to be getting answers, go to a different vet for a second opinion. They may suggest xrays or an ultrasound to see if there is any visual reason.
I'm not a doctor, but I work for 10, heh, so I get to ask all the questions about the patients.
I would do thorough testing, etc if it were me making the decisions, but I worry a lot

Hope you find a solution

Laurie · December 17th, 2009, 08:09 PM

Wonder how common pituitary problems like diabetes insipitis is in dogs. It is due to something going awry with he anterior pituitary (and has nothing to do with the pancreas diabetes mellitus). Patients put out mass volumes of urine and take in mass volumes of water. I'm just a shop teacher and a fellow worrier but I would sure get to the bottom of this even if it ment getting a second opinion. Good luck and let us know what you find.

dovehawkaussies · December 18th, 2009, 06:51 AM

I sent your Message to my friend, she graduated Cal poly Pomona with a BS in Animal Science and had all these Top Honors awards. She was on her way to becoming a Vet and changed course and is now a Nuclear Med Tech. Either way she loves cases since she either has retained everything she has learned and/or she gets to research further.
This is what she wrote;

Top pick is Congestive heart failure.
Along the same of thought and also on the running are Cardiomyopathy and Pulmonary edema. There are other possibilities as well though.

The high eosinophils represent inflamation (my guess is heart). If the lymphocytes are down along with the elevated eos then it could be a left shift indicating infection.

The ailment could be caused by a toxin (pesticides poisons household cleaners for example) or pathogen in the dog's environment (could be a tick or flea bourn pathogen like valley fever). Although I understand why he added salt to the diet (to tell the kidneys to retain more fluid and thereby lessen the output of urine) the vet is an idiot for only doing this because it is not treating the ailment. If the problem is CHF though, you don't want the dog to retain fluid... Stresses the heart too much.

Of course, the vet may have ruled out CHF or cardiac issues in which case I'm the idiot. But I don't know what tests were run or what the values are for the tests that were. An echocardiogram would show the size and EF of the heart, but I don't know how much one is. How old is the dog and what is it's health history and what area does it live in? Those are also helpful to know for vets (but will probably be meaningless to me anyway since I'm not one). Oh well. Good luck.
D

BoscoandKoda · December 27th, 2009, 12:29 AM

thanks everyone for the replies..

he is doing much better, the last couple of days he has not been going out as much, but he still goes quite a bit...just not as often..

his breathing is almost completely back to normal...he still gets tired faster than normal but he is better.

the vet just decided to give up on us and not call us back!! So after pestering them they called us back and said they would refer us to a specialist.

so if he continues we will just try a different vet.

so glad he is better though..we were worried about kidney/liver failure. Phew.

oh and the tests that they have done...
they checked liver kidney function which came back normal blood cell count, urine analysis, stool...
Everything but eosinphil came back normal. sugar levels were perfect.
we talked to a vet we know that lives farther away and they said to get a xray to check for stones or tumors that could be causing this...
but he doesn't seem like there is any pain when he goes...

Hurley · December 27th, 2009, 07:48 PM

There has to be a cause of the polyuria (urinating a large amount frequently) that they haven't found yet, so I would say if your vet is stumped that a visit to an internist is warranted. Diabetes insipidus does happen in dogs, though fairly infrequently, but there are several causes of polyuria that may not alter the bloodwork. The eosinophilia may or may not mean much. Eosinophils typically go up with allergic, parasitic, or autoimmune inflammation.

Obviously, don't withhold water from him as you can cause him to crash on you, depending on the cause. He's likely urinating so much because he has to, so he needs the water to make up for the losses.

An internal medicine referral is your best bet for the quickest answer and best recommendations and advice for treatment.

Take copies of any and all records with you, especially any labwork, radiographs, or ultrasound findings. I wouldn't wait on it, personally.

(Also, I wasn't clear on your post if you meant he goes for a long time as in a large amount, or he goes for a long time with a small stream or lots of straining with not a lot of production. If it's the second, then yes, a good rectal exam of the prostate, a radiograph of the abdomen/urinary tract, and potentially an ultrasound are indicated to rule out why the difficulty in expressing urine.)

BoscoandKoda · February 19th, 2010, 04:37 PM

Well we switched vets and spent a whole lot more money on him! And NO test came back abnormal. His exercise intolernace is gone, just the peeing problem. He is on a trial med. but it seems like he is just not able to hold it anymore. he will get up and all the sudden start going. Poor boy! We finish the medicine this week then next week start a different one, if nothing we are off to madison!
The vet wants to do as many possible tests he can think of before we go up there. Hopefully we can figure something out, he doesn't act sick at all just has issues.

SaintSamson · March 3rd, 2010, 04:20 PM

So this just crossed my mind, because I've encountered a similar situation as Koda.
My mom's Shih Tzu suddenly begin to increase his water intake, and while he was fine not pottying during the night, he now insists going out multiple times during the night. He is apparently urinating large quantities and drinks so much water he sometimes does not want to eat.

So far, he has had his blood and urine tested, xrays, and ultrasound and nothing has come back abnormal (his thyroid levels were a little low, but not enough to cause concern or to cause a problem). He has mega skin allergies, so his diet is constant and so are his meds. It's completely bizarre. They're doing another urine test in case they missed anything.

Would love to know if any answers or leads have been found with Koda!

BoscoandKoda · March 10th, 2010, 10:09 PM

Wow that's very strange..especially for two dogs having the same thing!!

So far we quit the meds and he has been off of them for at least a week..and he has had no accidents, all the sudden yesterday he started acting very lethargic and he has pretty icky stools. He didn't get into anything, at the show this past weekend he was pretty not normal by getting very tired easily. He got worse yesterday and now we are going to attempt to get to the vet tommorrow again...He was sitting and all the sudden he woke up and started a panting fit..oh poor koda this is just frustrating.

We are just wondering if it's something that had to do with his breeding- we were told that he is a result from a inbreeding but i can't figure out how exactly. He is 'wrong' in the head sometimes, this is just so frustrating.

SaintSamson · March 10th, 2010, 10:25 PM

That's so bizarre. Have they done any ultrasounds? Have they rechecked bloodwork, fecal, and urine?
I'm going to babysit my mom's dog tomorrow to see if I notice anything off about him. So far nothing has popped up... she submitted a second urine sample, but the techs were not clear about the whole fasting/urine catching part, so the sample might not have been good. (He was supposed to fast/have no water for 12 hours and then my mom was supposed to get a urine sample and immediately bring it to the vet... they neglected to tell her that if he went between the time he last ate/drank and the end of the 12 hours, that they needed THAT sample, not the one at the end of the 12 hours.)

I hope the vet has some leads about what's wrong with Koda!

dovehawkaussies · March 11th, 2010, 12:39 AM

He's is heavily line bred...IF his parentage is true....I would highly suggest a DNA test….. His Mom is his granddad's (on his father's side) full sister. Or Aunt to nephew breeding however it is easier to look at.
Inbreeding or Line breeding does not "create" health issues it just brings them front and center, as you are doubling up on that gene. In certain cases this is good practice to isolate "bad genes" to know whose producing what but for most it’s just bad practice.

http://www.hrdndog.com/cgi/trial.pl?sire=Gz8k0486&dam=6G1m8D75&sirepattern=Sh oreland+Simon+Says&dampattern=Shorelands+Right+On+ the+Money&submit=Create+Now

BoscoandKoda · March 11th, 2010, 01:03 PM

no they have only done a xray, but i think we may switch vets again, there is no way to get him in until next week, he is not as lethargic but still not normal today.
I think Koda's thyroid was just off perfect the first time when all of this started, and then we took it again a while later and he was perfectly fine..
his blood count wer were told is right on the dot with everything other than that..so it's rather strange!!

Thanks for that information...How would I go about doing a DNA on him?

December 16th, 2009, 04:00 PM	#1
BoscoandKoda Pup Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Winnebago, IL Posts: 19	Koda's having some health problems? not sure if this is the right place to post this but... The last 2 weeks Koda has been having to go outside and pee alot. He goes out at least once a hour now (sometimes twice) and when he goes for a long time.. He also has been sleeping more and when he does any exercise his breathing becomes labored. He has been tested for a UTI and it came back normal, he has had blood work done to make sure it's not his liver or kidneys nothing has come back wrong except his Eosinophils were high. His sugar levels also came back perfect We took in a stool sample and it came back normal.. The vet has had us adding protein (eggs) and salt to his diet for 5 days and nothing has changed. He also has been drinking more.. Does anyone have any suggestions on what it could be, or what we can try to help him out? Thanks.

December 17th, 2009, 12:54 AM	#2
SaintSamson Titled Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 123	What sort of blood screen did you have done? I would suggest a full blood panel and a U/A (urinary test) if they have not done so already. Also, have they checked his thyroid? Pancreas? Kidneys? Has he had a fecal test done recently? Are his lymph nodes swollen? Have his lungs and heart been checked thoroughly? Talk with your vet, if you don't seem to be getting answers, go to a different vet for a second opinion. They may suggest xrays or an ultrasound to see if there is any visual reason. I'm not a doctor, but I work for 10, heh, so I get to ask all the questions about the patients. I would do thorough testing, etc if it were me making the decisions, but I worry a lot Hope you find a solution __________________ Proud owner of ASCA Kilkenny's Saint Samson http://www.freewebs.com/kilkennyaustralianshepherds/

December 17th, 2009, 08:09 PM	#3
Laurie Titled Kennel Name: Full Tilt Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Lisbon, Iowa Posts: 124	Wonder how common pituitary problems like diabetes insipitis is in dogs. It is due to something going awry with he anterior pituitary (and has nothing to do with the pancreas diabetes mellitus). Patients put out mass volumes of urine and take in mass volumes of water. I'm just a shop teacher and a fellow worrier but I would sure get to the bottom of this even if it ment getting a second opinion. Good luck and let us know what you find. __________________ Laurie Lee Full Tilt Farm www.fulltiltfarm.com

December 18th, 2009, 06:51 AM	#4
dovehawkaussies Champion Kennel Name: Dovehawk Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 150	I sent your Message to my friend, she graduated Cal poly Pomona with a BS in Animal Science and had all these Top Honors awards. She was on her way to becoming a Vet and changed course and is now a Nuclear Med Tech. Either way she loves cases since she either has retained everything she has learned and/or she gets to research further. This is what she wrote; Top pick is Congestive heart failure. Along the same of thought and also on the running are Cardiomyopathy and Pulmonary edema. There are other possibilities as well though. The high eosinophils represent inflamation (my guess is heart). If the lymphocytes are down along with the elevated eos then it could be a left shift indicating infection. The ailment could be caused by a toxin (pesticides poisons household cleaners for example) or pathogen in the dog's environment (could be a tick or flea bourn pathogen like valley fever). Although I understand why he added salt to the diet (to tell the kidneys to retain more fluid and thereby lessen the output of urine) the vet is an idiot for only doing this because it is not treating the ailment. If the problem is CHF though, you don't want the dog to retain fluid... Stresses the heart too much. Of course, the vet may have ruled out CHF or cardiac issues in which case I'm the idiot. But I don't know what tests were run or what the values are for the tests that were. An echocardiogram would show the size and EF of the heart, but I don't know how much one is. How old is the dog and what is it's health history and what area does it live in? Those are also helpful to know for vets (but will probably be meaningless to me anyway since I'm not one). Oh well. Good luck. D __________________ ~The Dovehawk Gang~

December 27th, 2009, 12:29 AM	#5
BoscoandKoda Pup Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Winnebago, IL Posts: 19	thanks everyone for the replies.. he is doing much better, the last couple of days he has not been going out as much, but he still goes quite a bit...just not as often.. his breathing is almost completely back to normal...he still gets tired faster than normal but he is better. the vet just decided to give up on us and not call us back!! So after pestering them they called us back and said they would refer us to a specialist. so if he continues we will just try a different vet. so glad he is better though..we were worried about kidney/liver failure. Phew. oh and the tests that they have done... they checked liver kidney function which came back normal blood cell count, urine analysis, stool... Everything but eosinphil came back normal. sugar levels were perfect. we talked to a vet we know that lives farther away and they said to get a xray to check for stones or tumors that could be causing this... but he doesn't seem like there is any pain when he goes... Last edited by BoscoandKoda : December 27th, 2009 at 12:34 AM. Reason: forgot to answer questions.

December 27th, 2009, 07:48 PM	#6
Hurley Champion Kennel Name: Cedar Creek Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Palmyra, WI Posts: 438	There has to be a cause of the polyuria (urinating a large amount frequently) that they haven't found yet, so I would say if your vet is stumped that a visit to an internist is warranted. Diabetes insipidus does happen in dogs, though fairly infrequently, but there are several causes of polyuria that may not alter the bloodwork. The eosinophilia may or may not mean much. Eosinophils typically go up with allergic, parasitic, or autoimmune inflammation. Obviously, don't withhold water from him as you can cause him to crash on you, depending on the cause. He's likely urinating so much because he has to, so he needs the water to make up for the losses. An internal medicine referral is your best bet for the quickest answer and best recommendations and advice for treatment. Take copies of any and all records with you, especially any labwork, radiographs, or ultrasound findings. I wouldn't wait on it, personally. (Also, I wasn't clear on your post if you meant he goes for a long time as in a large amount, or he goes for a long time with a small stream or lots of straining with not a lot of production. If it's the second, then yes, a good rectal exam of the prostate, a radiograph of the abdomen/urinary tract, and potentially an ultrasound are indicated to rule out why the difficulty in expressing urine.) __________________ Connie Hurley and the Cedar Creek Crew http://CedarCreekAussies.com

February 19th, 2010, 04:37 PM	#7
BoscoandKoda Pup Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Winnebago, IL Posts: 19	Update! Well we switched vets and spent a whole lot more money on him! And NO test came back abnormal. His exercise intolernace is gone, just the peeing problem. He is on a trial med. but it seems like he is just not able to hold it anymore. he will get up and all the sudden start going. Poor boy! We finish the medicine this week then next week start a different one, if nothing we are off to madison! The vet wants to do as many possible tests he can think of before we go up there. Hopefully we can figure something out, he doesn't act sick at all just has issues.

March 3rd, 2010, 04:20 PM	#8
SaintSamson Titled Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 123	So this just crossed my mind, because I've encountered a similar situation as Koda. My mom's Shih Tzu suddenly begin to increase his water intake, and while he was fine not pottying during the night, he now insists going out multiple times during the night. He is apparently urinating large quantities and drinks so much water he sometimes does not want to eat. So far, he has had his blood and urine tested, xrays, and ultrasound and nothing has come back abnormal (his thyroid levels were a little low, but not enough to cause concern or to cause a problem). He has mega skin allergies, so his diet is constant and so are his meds. It's completely bizarre. They're doing another urine test in case they missed anything. Would love to know if any answers or leads have been found with Koda! __________________ Proud owner of ASCA Kilkenny's Saint Samson http://www.freewebs.com/kilkennyaustralianshepherds/

March 10th, 2010, 10:09 PM	#9
BoscoandKoda Pup Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Winnebago, IL Posts: 19	Wow that's very strange..especially for two dogs having the same thing!! So far we quit the meds and he has been off of them for at least a week..and he has had no accidents, all the sudden yesterday he started acting very lethargic and he has pretty icky stools. He didn't get into anything, at the show this past weekend he was pretty not normal by getting very tired easily. He got worse yesterday and now we are going to attempt to get to the vet tommorrow again...He was sitting and all the sudden he woke up and started a panting fit..oh poor koda this is just frustrating. We are just wondering if it's something that had to do with his breeding- we were told that he is a result from a inbreeding but i can't figure out how exactly. He is 'wrong' in the head sometimes, this is just so frustrating.

March 10th, 2010, 10:25 PM	#10
SaintSamson Titled Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 123	That's so bizarre. Have they done any ultrasounds? Have they rechecked bloodwork, fecal, and urine? I'm going to babysit my mom's dog tomorrow to see if I notice anything off about him. So far nothing has popped up... she submitted a second urine sample, but the techs were not clear about the whole fasting/urine catching part, so the sample might not have been good. (He was supposed to fast/have no water for 12 hours and then my mom was supposed to get a urine sample and immediately bring it to the vet... they neglected to tell her that if he went between the time he last ate/drank and the end of the 12 hours, that they needed THAT sample, not the one at the end of the 12 hours.) I hope the vet has some leads about what's wrong with Koda! __________________ Proud owner of ASCA Kilkenny's Saint Samson http://www.freewebs.com/kilkennyaustralianshepherds/

March 11th, 2010, 12:39 AM	#11
dovehawkaussies Champion Kennel Name: Dovehawk Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 150	He's is heavily line bred...IF his parentage is true....I would highly suggest a DNA test….. His Mom is his granddad's (on his father's side) full sister. Or Aunt to nephew breeding however it is easier to look at. Inbreeding or Line breeding does not "create" health issues it just brings them front and center, as you are doubling up on that gene. In certain cases this is good practice to isolate "bad genes" to know whose producing what but for most it’s just bad practice. http://www.hrdndog.com/cgi/trial.pl?sire=Gz8k0486&dam=6G1m8D75&sirepattern=Sh oreland+Simon+Says&dampattern=Shorelands+Right+On+ the+Money&submit=Create+Now __________________ ~The Dovehawk Gang~ Last edited by dovehawkaussies : March 11th, 2010 at 12:44 AM.

March 11th, 2010, 01:03 PM	#12
BoscoandKoda Pup Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Winnebago, IL Posts: 19	no they have only done a xray, but i think we may switch vets again, there is no way to get him in until next week, he is not as lethargic but still not normal today. I think Koda's thyroid was just off perfect the first time when all of this started, and then we took it again a while later and he was perfectly fine.. his blood count wer were told is right on the dot with everything other than that..so it's rather strange!! Thanks for that information...How would I go about doing a DNA on him?